Playing Solitaire - Asus 121 and Wacom versus N-trig

[Steve S]

<<...That horribly loud clicking sound...>>

...Look for a quieter pen in the foreseeable future.

[darkmagistric]

[QUOTE=Steve S;326216]<<...Well for the first problem with right clicks you can chaulk up to the included pen...>>

...Which is why I tried a second pen. The behavior was the same...

<<...The EP121's stock pen doesn't have any side switch...>>

...The presence or absence of a side switch is irrelevant. I'm talking about basic pen moves...

<<...The Wacom experience is really no different from the TC1100. If anything I find it superior since it doesn't nearly as many cursor glitches at the corners...>>

...My experience was not the same (and I've never experienced cursor problems in the corners of my TC1100...)

Could you elaborate alittle bit more on the problems your having. You just mention issues with Right clicking, double clicking, and dragging.

I wouldn't consider problems with right clicking as a basic pen movement issue, since that's the relevence of having the side switch: to right click. Are you just using the "Hold down" method of right clicking?

As far as double clicking, that I haven't had any trouble with at all on the ep121. Perhaps its just the feeling of the gorilla glass that's causing the problem? The glass surface of the ep121 is quite different feeling wise from the Tc1100. How long did you have to play with ep121?

And as for dragging, what are you trying to drag exactly? Are trying to drag a selection/mask in photoshop, or are you just trying to drag files around in Windows Explorer? With the later, On all my wacom tablets, I've had slight issue with getting the extra menu to pop up that gives you the option of copying or moving a file. Normally I have to utilize the side switch by holding it down as I'm dragging. Sometimes its hard to hold the button all the way in as I drag the pen....but doing the same on the Slate500 is much more difficult given the n-trig pens tip recoiling and recessed right click button.

And the glitch I've observed on both my Tc1100 and Ls800 is on the corners, the cursor will either jitter like its got Parkinson's, or rotate in tiny circles. Its normally on 2 or 3 of the 4 corners from some odd reason. I haven't noticed this on any of my 12 inch tablets, and caulked it up as a engineering issue with the smaller screen.

[Steve S]

<<...How long did you have to play with ep121?...>>

...I only had a couple of hours, spread over two days. That's why I made it a point to say that it was only a limited set of trials, and that there were a few things that I should have tried, but didn't think of until it was too late.

<<...I wouldn't consider problems with right clicking as a basic pen movement issue...Are you just using the "Hold down" method of right clicking?..>>

Yes, that is my personal preference. Since you can do this without moving your grip on the pen at all, I find it less disruptive to the inking experience. I don't mind the short delay. Of course, you might differ on this.

<<...Could you elaborate...You just mention issues with Right clicking, double clicking, and dragging...>>

...During the very short period of time that I had to try the EP121, I saw these problems on the Windows desktop, in the Solitaire game application, and in other pop-up windows (e.g., Control Panel, etc...). It was not a localized problem. Note that sometimes, the EP121 would respond without problems, but many times I would have to tap something two or even three times to get a response. I checked the Asus pen carefully, including the set of the nib, but it looked and felt normal. As I mentioned in the root posting, I also tried my Cross Executive pen, which I know to be working normally, and I saw exactly the same problems...!

<<...Perhaps its just the feeling of the gorilla glass...The glass surface of the ep121 is quite different feeling wise...>>

...The pen "feel" on the screen was not an issue. I work on many different tablet surfaces (different pen nibs and different brands of screen protector (as well as bare glass)... sometimes in the same day... I am not bothered by these differences.

<<...doing the same on the Slate500 is much more difficult given the n-trig pens tip recoiling and recessed right click button...>>

...I certainly agree that the N-trig Digital Pencil needs to be improved and have said so on numerous occasions, primarily in the HP Slate 500 forum. I have also made specific suggestions about this to Rick, who posts on that forum.

However, let me make one other observation at this point: My attitude is that N-trig can fix the more serious issues with its pen and digitizer, and that we, as a community, are better off if we can cultivate two good digitizer providers rather than settling for just one. So rather than simply tearing N-trig down, I prefer to recognize the things that their DuoSense digitizer does well... and one of those things is their Touch experience... and then provide constructive criticism (and, again, I've done a lot of that) about the things that need to be improved, like the Digital Pencil. Not everything about the N-trig digitizer is bad. It took N-trig almost three years, but the XT2 pen and touch experience is at least as good as any other such digitizer that I am aware of, including Wacom.

It's clear that we're going to see a lot more N-trig equipped tablets in the coming months; I'm for providing constructive feedback so that those tablets are better than what we've seen so far...

[cartoonmonkey]

I have to say, as a long time Wacom user, there are several physical and legal reasons that N-Trig technology just isn't as good as Wacom.

First, an illustration:


Wacom differs from N-Trig in the fact that the whole backside of the LCD is covered by a grid of wires. This grid emits a weak electromagnetic field, which powers the electronics in the pen. Positioning and click data is sent both to the pen, and from the pen.

N-Trig technology works via a frame around the display. The pen itself is transmitting an electromagnetic field, powered by a battery, which sensors in the frame pick up and translate to x-y data. It's just unfortunately not as precise as what Wacom has been perfecting for the last 15 plus years.

Patents! I can't name the specific patents, but I'm sure that Wacom has the proprietary way it deals with the OS locked down pat. The Wintab specification specifically. N-Trig recently released a driver that enables interaction with WinTab, but I haven't tried it. This even breaks down to the click in N-Trig's "digital pencil" I'd wager. Specific parts of the Wacom pen's mechanics itself, have to be held under heavy patents. Their business depends on it.

In fact, I haven't tried a siingle N-Trig device. (well, maybe one years and years ago..but I stopped at "Ew..no pressure sensitivity in Photoshop??")
Things have improved somewhat since then, but for my money.. as an artist, I can't have the imprecision and lack of pressure sensitive compatibility across all apps when I go to purchase my tablets.

Now N-Trig has in my mind, gotten away with taking a bit more market share due to the fact that their product is probably cheaper to implement than Wacom's. Hardware manufacturing costs go down, profits go up. Simple. The average joe doesn't look too deeply into line quality. In fact, I'd say the average joe doesn't care. But it's when you work closely with something for a few hours..and notice the subtle differences. Suddenly things aren't so subtle, and the flaws jump out at you.

I'd like to offer this directly to N-Trig though, if anyone out there is listening.
I'll take the N-Trig challenge! Get me a nice Tablet PC with an N-Trig digitizer to demo, and I'll do a full video review on it. I'll test it in a variety of graphics applications, and compare it line for line against Wacom.

If for any reason, I or my colleagues on video find that the N-Trig compares on the same level to Wacom's technology, or that I find that N-Trig has reached the level of line quality and precision I'm used to with Wacom digitizers.. I will rent a chicken suit and film myself in front of Wacom's headquarters with a sign saying "N-Trig rules!" or "I was wrong about N-Trig!" and dance for your pleasure on YouTube.

Gauntlet..thrown.. down..!

ha ha!
-Chad Essley

[cartoonmonkey]

Oh, and I didn't mean to appear too rough handed. I'm actually interested in the competition.. IF they can meet or beat what I've seen Wacom doing. ( Also, pressure working across the board in all apps )
I've been pretty staunchly one sided about it, but that being said, I hope to be pleasantly surprised by TWO great digitizer choices out there some day.. if not more.
C

[Steve S]

<<...N-Trig technology works via a frame around the display...>>

Chad: This would be a persuasive argument if it were correct, but it isn't correct. From the N-trig website (emphasis mine):

"...N-trig DuoSense® dual-mode digitizer solution for pen and multi-touch is a grid-based capacitive touch solution, using a highly accurate capacitive sensing system mounted in front of the LCD panel..."

In fact, the sensing grid was clearly visible on some early Dell XTs, and was the source of at least a few owner complaints at the time. N-trig apparently fixed that because my XT2 has no issues in this regard.

<<<...In fact, I haven't tried a siingle N-Trig device...>>

It seems to me that criticizing a technology without having any experience with it is kind of dicey. I'm in the process of buying an Asus EP121 for precisely this reason; I can't draw accurate comparisons between N-trig and Wacom if I haven't worked with both company's latest technologies...

[Steve S]

A bit more on this discussion:

<<...Wacom differs...in the fact that the whole backside of the LCD is covered by a grid of wires. This grid emits a weak electromagnetic field, which powers the electronics in the pen...>>

...As far as I know, this is correct, but...

<<...Positioning and click data is sent both to the pen, and from the pen...>>

...I believe this is not correct. The Wacom pen contains a resonant circuit that interacts with the detection grid behind the LCD screen. Nib contact with the screen and pressure vary the resonant frequency and the detection grid translates this into the appropriate responses. In this sense, "data" is only sent one way; from pen to grid...

<<...N-Trig technology works via a frame around the display...>>

Flatly not correct. N-trig's DuoSense digitizer is a transparent plate that fits over the face of the tablet's LCD display. The plate has a fine transparent grid on it. In the earlier generation of DuoSense (XT, XT2, tx2...), the plate also incorporated an excitation coil that supplied a pulsing RF field that powered N-trig's battery-less pen (much like Wacom). The current (no pun intended!) generation of DuoSense (Slate 500, T580, Q550, CL900...) eliminates the excitation coil, circuitry and power draw in favor of the battery-powered Digital Pencil. The DP radiates an EM field that the DuoSense grid can detect. My guess is that screen contact and pressure vary the EM field in an analogous way as Wacom...

<<...I can't name the specific patents, but I'm sure that Wacom has the proprietary way it deals with the OS locked down pat...>>

...Patents are definitely an issue, but there are many ways for skilled practitioners to maneuver around existing patents. In addition, patents are an offensive instrument, not a defensive instrument. That is, a patent will not prevent someone from using your intellectual property, but you can certainly try to sue them (to stop them) if you discover them and can make your case. Finally, the mere existence of a patent is not necessarily a showstopper. Patents can be challenged (and nullified) and many, many patents are poorly constructed, with plenty of gaps that can be exploited. However, your original point here is well taken; Wacom got here first, and they have established protection for their IP. N-trig no doubt does have to maneuver around that...

[Michelle Mastin]

<<...N-Trig technology works via a frame around the display...>>

Chad: This would be a persuasive argument if it were correct, but it isn't correct. From the N-trig website (emphasis mine):

"...N-trig DuoSense® dual-mode digitizer solution for pen and multi-touch is a grid-based capacitive touch solution, using a highly accurate capacitive sensing system mounted in front of the LCD panel..."

In fact, the sensing grid was clearly visible on some early Dell XTs, and was the source of at least a few owner complaints at the time. N-trig apparently fixed that because my XT2 has no issues in this regard.

Ah, but that's talking about the Capacitive touch layer. That's just the grid that senses fingers. You can also see that grid on most smartphones in the right light. A capacitive sensor grid has nothing to do with an active pen. I believe the capacitive sensor grid is separate from the frame sensor that sees the pen. I'm pretty sure cartoonmonkey's illustrations are accurate in terms of the pen technology and the grid mentioned on the n-trig website is only for the finger touch part of the duo-sense digitizer.

[Steve S]

<<...A capacitive sensor grid has nothing to do with an active pen...>>

Sigh. Not correct. The grid senses both the pen and your finger.

[Michelle Mastin]

<<...A capacitive sensor grid has nothing to do with an active pen...>>

Sigh. Not correct. The grid senses both the pen and your finger.

At this point, I'm going to need references beyond n-trig's marketing. Based on everything I know about how capacitive touch works and all the additional information I've been able to read about capacitive touch technology vs active pen technology, it is correct. Oddly, while there is plenty of information available about how Wacom's pen technology works, I've been unable to find much about n-trig's pens beyond the marketing copy on their website.

At this point, I've read many more sources that suggests cartoonmonkey's illustration is accurate, and the only evidence I have to the contrary is your continued assertions that it's wrong.