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View Full Version : Anyone check this program out? http://www.xthin


Wykyd
06-04-2003, 05:31 AM
Anyone check this program out?
http://www.xthink.com/product.html]
Imagine combining Journal with an insane calculator.
http://forumimages.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-krad.gif
pkhuong
06-04-2003, 05:48 AM
Eh, Maple+TIP - cheaper, plus i don't have to reread my handwriting :). Well, assuming carets and parenthesis are recognized well.
love2lindy
06-04-2003, 04:23 PM
"cheaper..."

Have you seen pricing on this yet? The ability to convert handwriting to LaTeX will be awesome!
pkhuong
06-04-2003, 04:38 PM
l2l:can't beat free :)
paradoxicalcat
06-05-2003, 01:39 AM
quote:Originally posted by pkhuong

l2l:can't beat free :)


I completely disagree. I find having to use TIP to input my equations into Maple one of the most upsetting parts of my day!!
I can't wait to have a more intuitive way to use my tablet, and allow me to think like a physicist, not a programmer. Maple forces you to think like a programmer, how do you write x squared? is it x superscript 2, or x^2?? x^2 is programmer speak, and physicists think better when they can speak their own language.

Just my 2cents on the issue.

GO MATHJOURNAL!!! Wooohooo!!
pkhuong
06-05-2003, 03:28 AM
You already know my PoV re carets and Physicist/Mathematician/etc VS programmer(I'm a programmer, hehe). Still, would it be so hard to make a TIP clone with ~4 lines : 2 middle=normal script, others for subscript&superscript? Now, if it recognized multiple *scripts, i'd be very, very happy.

Also, on LaTeX conversion: I've seen a few people complain of having to learn LaTeX/PS to have their papers "just right". Do you think the conversion will be perfect? I doubt. I'm very interested in how they will handle bold, italics, etc. :)
paradoxicalcat
06-05-2003, 10:52 AM
quote:Originally posted by pkhuong

You already know my PoV re carets and Physicist/Mathematician/etc VS programmer(I'm a programmer, hehe). Still, would it be so hard to make a TIP clone with ~4 lines : 2 middle=normal script, others for subscript&superscript? Now, if it recognized multiple *scripts, i'd be very, very happy.


What you say is true, if it were just carets that were the problem. But, to do an integration in Maple requires syntax that takes the math out of the problem.
If I could just write an integration sign, write the upper and lower limits of integration in their super and sub-script respective places, and then write an equation inside the integration, and have a program that performs the integration and gives an answer or plots an answer....AWESOME.
The same holds for differential equations, or better yet, SERIES of Partial differential equations... If I could write them on my tablet like I would on a chalkboard, and have the program interact and give me useful answers/graphs....that's pure HEAVEN. At least, to me it is, but I'm kind of strange anyway.

<start long winded dreamy discussions>
I believe that this could speed the realm of scientific understanding in ways unimaginable by even the most creative. Tablet PCs will change science, expediete scientific thought and process, which will give us a better understanding of the World/Cosmos/Universe.
Imagine a chemist using a tablet to understand new drug therapies for cancer patients. (I know they already have 3-D simulations for this, but tablets are far more accessible).
Imagine the way in which people who need to convey abstract thought will be able to pinpoint what it is they're thinking with a free-form interface. Tablets are sooo exciting, and I'm sure that everybody in academics will have one within 4 years. Exciting, I think.
</spaceship has landed>
paradoxicalcat
06-05-2003, 10:52 AM
quote:Originally posted by pkhuong

You already know my PoV re carets and Physicist/Mathematician/etc VS programmer(I'm a programmer, hehe). Still, would it be so hard to make a TIP clone with ~4 lines : 2 middle=normal script, others for subscript&superscript? Now, if it recognized multiple *scripts, i'd be very, very happy.


What you say is true, if it were just carets that were the problem. But, to do an integration in Maple requires syntax that takes the math out of the problem.
If I could just write an integration sign, write the upper and lower limits of integration in their super and sub-script respective places, and then write an equation inside the integration, and have a program that performs the integration and gives an answer or plots an answer....AWESOME.
The same holds for differential equations, or better yet, SERIES of Partial differential equations... If I could write them on my tablet like I would on a chalkboard, and have the program interact and give me useful answers/graphs....that's pure HEAVEN. At least, to me it is, but I'm kind of strange anyway.

<start long winded dreamy discussions>
I believe that this could speed the realm of scientific understanding in ways unimaginable by even the most creative. Tablet PCs will change science, expediete scientific thought and process, which will give us a better understanding of the World/Cosmos/Universe.
Imagine a chemist using a tablet to understand new drug therapies for cancer patients. (I know they already have 3-D simulations for this, but tablets are far more accessible).
Imagine the way in which people who need to convey abstract thought will be able to pinpoint what it is they're thinking with a free-form interface. Tablets are sooo exciting, and I'm sure that everybody in academics will have one within 4 years. Exciting, I think.
</spaceship has landed>
Wykyd
06-10-2003, 05:28 AM
quote:

Imagine a chemist using a tablet to understand new drug therapies for cancer patients. (I know they already have 3-D simulations for this, but tablets are far more accessible).


I'm majoring in biochem, and the prime reason I'm getting a tablet is for this kind of work. Writing out 30+ atoms/structure is a horrible ordeal on paper, but doing so on a computer is much worse sometimes.
And yes the main reason I like MathJournal is that I hate using Maple for actual math. I know how to use it, but I would rather not have to spend the extra time to debug things.
Wykyd
06-10-2003, 05:28 AM
quote:

Imagine a chemist using a tablet to understand new drug therapies for cancer patients. (I know they already have 3-D simulations for this, but tablets are far more accessible).


I'm majoring in biochem, and the prime reason I'm getting a tablet is for this kind of work. Writing out 30+ atoms/structure is a horrible ordeal on paper, but doing so on a computer is much worse sometimes.
And yes the main reason I like MathJournal is that I hate using Maple for actual math. I know how to use it, but I would rather not have to spend the extra time to debug things.
Wykyd
06-10-2003, 05:28 AM
quote:

Imagine a chemist using a tablet to understand new drug therapies for cancer patients. (I know they already have 3-D simulations for this, but tablets are far more accessible).


I'm majoring in biochem, and the prime reason I'm getting a tablet is for this kind of work. Writing out 30+ atoms/structure is a horrible ordeal on paper, but doing so on a computer is much worse sometimes.
And yes the main reason I like MathJournal is that I hate using Maple for actual math. I know how to use it, but I would rather not have to spend the extra time to debug things.
Wykyd
06-10-2003, 05:28 AM
quote:

Imagine a chemist using a tablet to understand new drug therapies for cancer patients. (I know they already have 3-D simulations for this, but tablets are far more accessible).


I'm majoring in biochem, and the prime reason I'm getting a tablet is for this kind of work. Writing out 30+ atoms/structure is a horrible ordeal on paper, but doing so on a computer is much worse sometimes.
And yes the main reason I like MathJournal is that I hate using Maple for actual math. I know how to use it, but I would rather not have to spend the extra time to debug things.
Wykyd
06-10-2003, 05:28 AM
quote:

Imagine a chemist using a tablet to understand new drug therapies for cancer patients. (I know they already have 3-D simulations for this, but tablets are far more accessible).


I'm majoring in biochem, and the prime reason I'm getting a tablet is for this kind of work. Writing out 30+ atoms/structure is a horrible ordeal on paper, but doing so on a computer is much worse sometimes.
And yes the main reason I like MathJournal is that I hate using Maple for actual math. I know how to use it, but I would rather not have to spend the extra time to debug things.
theministryofsillywalks
06-10-2003, 05:59 AM
Yes. Another Chemist, I'm starting an undergraduate Masters Degree at Bristol come sept and I'm looking at a TPC (M1300 or 2nd gen HP, depending on 2nd gen HP specs) for these exact reasons. I can't think of anyhting worse than having to write out a binomial expansion for a rate of reaction whatever using programmer techniques. BLEURGH! YUK! :-)

MathJournal is a definite buy for me, whatever TPC i wind up getting.
theministryofsillywalks
06-10-2003, 05:59 AM
Yes. Another Chemist, I'm starting an undergraduate Masters Degree at Bristol come sept and I'm looking at a TPC (M1300 or 2nd gen HP, depending on 2nd gen HP specs) for these exact reasons. I can't think of anyhting worse than having to write out a binomial expansion for a rate of reaction whatever using programmer techniques. BLEURGH! YUK! :-)

MathJournal is a definite buy for me, whatever TPC i wind up getting.
theministryofsillywalks
06-10-2003, 05:59 AM
Yes. Another Chemist, I'm starting an undergraduate Masters Degree at Bristol come sept and I'm looking at a TPC (M1300 or 2nd gen HP, depending on 2nd gen HP specs) for these exact reasons. I can't think of anyhting worse than having to write out a binomial expansion for a rate of reaction whatever using programmer techniques. BLEURGH! YUK! :-)

MathJournal is a definite buy for me, whatever TPC i wind up getting.
theministryofsillywalks
06-10-2003, 05:59 AM
Yes. Another Chemist, I'm starting an undergraduate Masters Degree at Bristol come sept and I'm looking at a TPC (M1300 or 2nd gen HP, depending on 2nd gen HP specs) for these exact reasons. I can't think of anyhting worse than having to write out a binomial expansion for a rate of reaction whatever using programmer techniques. BLEURGH! YUK! :-)

MathJournal is a definite buy for me, whatever TPC i wind up getting.
theministryofsillywalks
06-10-2003, 05:59 AM
Yes. Another Chemist, I'm starting an undergraduate Masters Degree at Bristol come sept and I'm looking at a TPC (M1300 or 2nd gen HP, depending on 2nd gen HP specs) for these exact reasons. I can't think of anyhting worse than having to write out a binomial expansion for a rate of reaction whatever using programmer techniques. BLEURGH! YUK! :-)

MathJournal is a definite buy for me, whatever TPC i wind up getting.
kranky
06-12-2003, 03:00 AM
The info on the xthink site is sketchy (ooh, good pun! [^]).

Does anyone know an approximate time frame when this is supposed to be out?
kranky
06-12-2003, 03:00 AM
The info on the xthink site is sketchy (ooh, good pun! [^]).

Does anyone know an approximate time frame when this is supposed to be out?
kranky
06-12-2003, 03:00 AM
The info on the xthink site is sketchy (ooh, good pun! [^]).

Does anyone know an approximate time frame when this is supposed to be out?
kranky
06-12-2003, 03:00 AM
The info on the xthink site is sketchy (ooh, good pun! [^]).

Does anyone know an approximate time frame when this is supposed to be out?
kranky
06-12-2003, 03:00 AM
The info on the xthink site is sketchy (ooh, good pun! [^]).

Does anyone know an approximate time frame when this is supposed to be out?
Dantekilgore
06-14-2003, 07:01 PM
quote:Originally posted by theministryofsillywalks

Yes. Another Chemist, I'm starting an undergraduate Masters Degree at Bristol come sept and I'm looking at a TPC (M1300 or 2nd gen HP, depending on 2nd gen HP specs) for these exact reasons. I can't think of anyhting worse than having to write out a binomial expansion for a rate of reaction whatever using programmer techniques. BLEURGH! YUK! :-)

MathJournal is a definite buy for me, whatever TPC i wind up getting.


Undergraduate Masters degree? is there also a grad masters degree and phd?
Dantekilgore
06-14-2003, 07:01 PM
quote:Originally posted by theministryofsillywalks

Yes. Another Chemist, I'm starting an undergraduate Masters Degree at Bristol come sept and I'm looking at a TPC (M1300 or 2nd gen HP, depending on 2nd gen HP specs) for these exact reasons. I can't think of anyhting worse than having to write out a binomial expansion for a rate of reaction whatever using programmer techniques. BLEURGH! YUK! :-)

MathJournal is a definite buy for me, whatever TPC i wind up getting.


Undergraduate Masters degree? is there also a grad masters degree and phd?
paradoxicalcat
06-16-2003, 12:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by kranky

The info on the xthink site is sketchy (ooh, good pun! [^]).

Does anyone know an approximate time frame when this is supposed to be out?


I agree... Very sketchy. The video is done weird too. I seriously doubt that the HR engine is actually doing the work in the online video. It seems like the numbers just appear. And why does the guy in the video talk to us like we're idiots??? I mean, he explains every little minute detail of each calculation. Really, they should just show off what the app can do, and not try and teach us math.

ALSO, why do they have the answers come back as ink?? The ink that is written back is hard to read, also. The decimal points and other symbols are italicized or something and are hard to discern.

I'm hoping that someone, somewhere can do this right (write -- PUN)
and finally release at least something. Then I won't have to obscenely hunt and peck into TIP, typing esoteric Maple input commands. Yucky.
paradoxicalcat
06-16-2003, 12:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by kranky

The info on the xthink site is sketchy (ooh, good pun! [^]).

Does anyone know an approximate time frame when this is supposed to be out?


I agree... Very sketchy. The video is done weird too. I seriously doubt that the HR engine is actually doing the work in the online video. It seems like the numbers just appear. And why does the guy in the video talk to us like we're idiots??? I mean, he explains every little minute detail of each calculation. Really, they should just show off what the app can do, and not try and teach us math.

ALSO, why do they have the answers come back as ink?? The ink that is written back is hard to read, also. The decimal points and other symbols are italicized or something and are hard to discern.

I'm hoping that someone, somewhere can do this right (write -- PUN)
and finally release at least something. Then I won't have to obscenely hunt and peck into TIP, typing esoteric Maple input commands. Yucky.
steveh from motion
06-17-2003, 06:35 AM
Hi -

For what its worth, we were very pleased to have the xthink guys come to Motion and demonstrate MathJournal to us. The recognizer engine is definitely working as it appears, even though I might agree that the video is a little rough.

The answers are rendered as ink -- I am not sure that is necessary, but that is how they do it. I agree that it might have been simpler to have the results come back inside a textbox, but they indicated that their intent is to render the results more correctly than is seen in their demo and video.

I have been urging these guys to ship a product asap. I sincerely believe that this is the most interesting and significant tablet app I have yet seen.

Thanx!
steveh
steveh from motion
06-17-2003, 06:35 AM
Hi -

For what its worth, we were very pleased to have the xthink guys come to Motion and demonstrate MathJournal to us. The recognizer engine is definitely working as it appears, even though I might agree that the video is a little rough.

The answers are rendered as ink -- I am not sure that is necessary, but that is how they do it. I agree that it might have been simpler to have the results come back inside a textbox, but they indicated that their intent is to render the results more correctly than is seen in their demo and video.

I have been urging these guys to ship a product asap. I sincerely believe that this is the most interesting and significant tablet app I have yet seen.

Thanx!
steveh
thadk
06-17-2003, 07:04 PM
I ran across a Graduate student's thesis/research project math formula recogniser which might be an interesting project for someone to try to get running on the tablet.

http://www.cs.queensu.ca/drl/ffes/:The Freehand Formula Entry System and DRACULAE runs on Tcl/TK framework and uses a number of libraries you'll have to get.

Officially it is released for Linux and Mac OS X under X11. The main reason (afaict) it wasn't ported to Windows was that a closed library hadn't been ported yet (TXL)--it is now. So it might be possible to build it with cygwin for Windows.

Either that or bring it in from a linux system via an X server on your Tablet.

I will probably try to get it running for a while once I recieve my tablet. My linux distros didn't immediately agree with the build process and I didn't press the issue.
thadk
06-17-2003, 07:04 PM
I ran across a Graduate student's thesis/research project math formula recogniser which might be an interesting project for someone to try to get running on the tablet.

http://www.cs.queensu.ca/drl/ffes/:The Freehand Formula Entry System and DRACULAE runs on Tcl/TK framework and uses a number of libraries you'll have to get.

Officially it is released for Linux and Mac OS X under X11. The main reason (afaict) it wasn't ported to Windows was that a closed library hadn't been ported yet (TXL)--it is now. So it might be possible to build it with cygwin for Windows.

Either that or bring it in from a linux system via an X server on your Tablet.

I will probably try to get it running for a while once I recieve my tablet. My linux distros didn't immediately agree with the build process and I didn't press the issue.
theministryofsillywalks
06-18-2003, 05:13 AM
quote:Dan - Undergraduate Masters degree? is there also a grad masters degree and phd?

Yep. If you do a BSci/BChem you can do an extra bit to get an MSci/MChem. If you have either a 1st or 2:1 at MSci/MChem you could be considered to do another 3 years for a PhD.
theministryofsillywalks
06-18-2003, 05:13 AM
quote:Dan - Undergraduate Masters degree? is there also a grad masters degree and phd?

Yep. If you do a BSci/BChem you can do an extra bit to get an MSci/MChem. If you have either a 1st or 2:1 at MSci/MChem you could be considered to do another 3 years for a PhD.
Cameronj
06-18-2003, 10:29 AM
Hey how much is this thing supposed to cost anyway?
Cameronj
06-18-2003, 10:29 AM
Hey how much is this thing supposed to cost anyway?
Dantekilgore
06-18-2003, 06:25 PM
i was told between $100 and $200 for the regular edition but much more for pro.
Dantekilgore
06-18-2003, 06:25 PM
i was told between $100 and $200 for the regular edition but much more for pro.
theministryofsillywalks
06-19-2003, 02:58 AM
Do you reckon they'll be a nice student version which costs alot less and would be subsidised by universities. I hope so. ;)
theministryofsillywalks
06-19-2003, 02:58 AM
Do you reckon they'll be a nice student version which costs alot less and would be subsidised by universities. I hope so. ;)
Dantekilgore
06-19-2003, 03:29 PM
I asked that exact question and they.voted the $100 to $200 price back to me for students and others. The higher price for the pro model is aimed at engineers and other professionals.
Dantekilgore
06-19-2003, 03:29 PM
I asked that exact question and they.voted the $100 to $200 price back to me for students and others. The higher price for the pro model is aimed at engineers and other professionals.
Dantekilgore
06-19-2003, 03:43 PM
oops that should be quoted not voted
Dantekilgore
06-19-2003, 03:43 PM
oops that should be quoted not voted
paradoxicalcat
06-20-2003, 08:35 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dantekilgore

oops that should be quoted not voted


I was told the very same by xthink, but also was told that "symbolic operations" would NOT be included in the basic (student) version. I would like to know exactly what they mean by that, but they haven't replied back.
From what it sounds like, lacking CAS (Computer Algebra sys) would be a MAJOR bummer, and certainly would not be worth $100-200. Students all around the world use CAS day-in, day-out with Maple/Mathematica/MatLAB. My school gives away copies for free. So, I'm supposed to pay $500-$900 to be able to do CAS (what they call "symbolic operations") with my handwriting, as a poor student??? Sounds a little like highway robbery here. Seriously hope that someone else comes along, I'll take a look at coding it myself, which was my original plan.
If they don't include "symbolic operation" capability with their "student" version, they will be making a huge mistake, and I can guarantee won't sell nearly as many copies as they would otherwise. The best way a software product can be successful is if they have a large enough user base. Students would give them this base, and could even make them bigger than MatLab/Maple. Granted, that student versions sell for a reduced price, but having the bigger market share is worth it if you look long term to when those very same students are purchasing the full version at full cost when they become established in their fields.

Oh well.
paradoxicalcat
06-20-2003, 08:35 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dantekilgore

oops that should be quoted not voted


I was told the very same by xthink, but also was told that "symbolic operations" would NOT be included in the basic (student) version. I would like to know exactly what they mean by that, but they haven't replied back.
From what it sounds like, lacking CAS (Computer Algebra sys) would be a MAJOR bummer, and certainly would not be worth $100-200. Students all around the world use CAS day-in, day-out with Maple/Mathematica/MatLAB. My school gives away copies for free. So, I'm supposed to pay $500-$900 to be able to do CAS (what they call "symbolic operations") with my handwriting, as a poor student??? Sounds a little like highway robbery here. Seriously hope that someone else comes along, I'll take a look at coding it myself, which was my original plan.
If they don't include "symbolic operation" capability with their "student" version, they will be making a huge mistake, and I can guarantee won't sell nearly as many copies as they would otherwise. The best way a software product can be successful is if they have a large enough user base. Students would give them this base, and could even make them bigger than MatLab/Maple. Granted, that student versions sell for a reduced price, but having the bigger market share is worth it if you look long term to when those very same students are purchasing the full version at full cost when they become established in their fields.

Oh well.
theministryofsillywalks
06-21-2003, 05:59 AM
Well crossing my fingers I might be able to get Uni to pay for it :D
theministryofsillywalks
06-21-2003, 05:59 AM
Well crossing my fingers I might be able to get Uni to pay for it :D